Hi everyone, I use Linux on all my machines since a decade. Unfortunately my laptops are getting older and I will probably have to change them soon. Which Laptops would you recommend me to buy in 2025 a part Librem?
I don’t have a high budget but I’m still looking for something relatively recent. I looked on H-node but it seems that there are not a lot of recent things.
I use Debian as a distro.
Open source hardware
They have core boot, which is a big plus, but the hardware itself is not open source.
This is the route I’ll probably go when it’s time for me to replace my laptop. The 14" Lemur Pro looks perfect for my use case (ultra portable) although the Pangolin looks more powerful.
I unfortunately had disabling experiences with the System76 Pangolin (12). Since then I would absolutely not recommend System76.
Do elaborate
Mostly it boils down to three categories:
- Case build quality. This seems a be a frequent issue among System76 laptops; in my case (no pun intended), the laptop case was very badly made and easily broke. I carry my device around very much, always in my backpack, which has a padded laptop section, and in a fancy padded laptop case (or bag or whatever the word is—arg). I essentially have double padding, and I have had a good experience with this padding and previous laptops. This time, however, even simply putting the backpack down, was enough force to dent and eventually completely crush the empty corners next to the hinges. I had to manually repair the corners very often, but wasn’t able to prevent damage to the hinges and stripping the threads holding the hinges in place. No other laptop, even ones much cheaper, has ever presented me with this problem, and it is extremely frustrating that the laptop isn’t designed to be even mildly rugged.
- Faulty motherboard and bad quality-control. The laptop I bought had two M.2 NVMe slots, with only one occupied. I was planning to add one of my existing SSDs into the second slot. The second slot, however, did not work. This is such an easy thing to test before shipping it, that it really left a bad taste in my mouth.
- Faulty part and known issue. After about two weeks of using my laptop, the touchpad started malfunctioning. I looked the issue up, and, well and behold, this was a well known issue with this specific laptop. I contacted support and the problem remained unsolved. System76 released and continued selling a laptop with a known, unsolvable issue. This was the final blow, and I totally lost trust in the company after experiencing this.
Forgive the shitty writing, I’m doing this in my phone.
Hope I was able to help, kind regards.
I had a galago pro and it was not well built. It fell apart faster than any other laptop I’ve used.
Do elaborate
I’ve got a galago pro that’s a little over five years old now, and I’m still pretty happy with it.
I would recommend a Thinkpad. I have an E14, you can get them for under 800 Bucks. The Linux support is awesome ,under Fedora everything works out of the box.
Try Framework.
You’ll get a laptop sized to your budget and you’ll be able to grow with it, upgrade any part your budget will allow in the future.
Their linux support is excellent.
Framework laptops are not great actually. They basically are offloading their qa/qc onto customers. They routinely ship defective units new out of the box and try to make you do all their engineering work for them.
The quality of the components is meh at best. If I were doing it again, I would go the ThinkPad route.
Framework is a bunch of VC funded shills who see the right to repair movement as a resource they can exploit.
My friends had about the same amount oft issues with their thinkpad as me with the fw.
I agree, that there are many issues, but you don’t notice them in daily use.
The support is very good with most people, I seem to have bad luck, but once I got someone helpful, it got solved super quick.
I still recommend fw. I wish they would redo the fw13 and improve upon all the little issues everyone had, but mine still goes strong and I hope it will for many years to come
not to be a downer but you could very likely buy a higher performing laptop than even the top framework laptop for less money than even a minimal build
Yes but in the future when you need or want to upgrade again, it’s a fairly trivial cost because you’re reusing 90% of the parts. It’s an investment.
Not to mention if there’s any kind of mechanical issue in the future.
reusing 90% of the parts
Oops you need a whole new mainboard anyway to upgrade the CPU… oops you need new DDR5 RAM for the new CPU… oops these framework parts cost a premium at about the same cost as a new laptop anyay. Congrats, you now have an upgraded laptop in an old case that’s already gone through wear and tear… at least you kept the SSD that could have been popped into a new laptop as a secondary drive?
Oops you need a whole new mainboard anyway to upgrade the CPU
Yes that would be the 10% I was referring to.
oops you need new DDR5 RAM for the new CPU
…and the other new computer you want to buy doesn’t?
oops these framework parts cost a premium
You pay a little more for the 10% of new parts but it’s easily accounted for in the other 90%.
Congrats, you now have…an old case that’s already gone through wear and tear…
…so? You saved buckets of money in the process…
not rlly wanting to reply to everyone but framework mainboards are price comparable to equivalent entire laptops
i literally want a framework laptop, but selling it to people as a good way to save money isn’t really viable in my opinion
That’s cool. Performance per dollar isn’t the only factor for a laptop.
Size
Weight
Durability
Battery life
I/O and other features.
A not dogshit network card
An actually usuable trackpad
I’m sure I could list more. But those are all things that are important on a laptop and you can’t change after you buy it.
Yes, but that’s not the point of framework
Framework is a great concept, a great idea for places technology could go, but even its newest offerings are janky. I’ve seen the reviews from people who want to love them. I too want to love them. The modular tech they’re built around is cool as hell but in terms of daily use laptop that moves with you day in day out, it just ain’t it, imho.
Ive run Linux on multiple think pads, a razer laptop, and an asus gaming laptop, and they all work fine. Buy the hardware that works for you, and put Linux on it. It’s that simple.
I daily drive my framework 13 since the first batch, upgraded twice the mobo. I run it on arch Linux, 0 issue whatsoever even after a year bringing it on site like the Texan boonies or on boats in the middle of the golf of Mexico … Compatibility wise with linux, 100% of the peripherals work, even the finger reader thing.
I don’t want to denigrate people that it works for, because I know the people that love them love them.
Has the battery life (more specifically drain while in suspend) gotten better? I’ve heard horror stories on that, port availability (pretty limited ports because each port attachment takes up so much space) and some complaints about build quality and durability.
Out of the box battery was not great for the 11th gen, but with the correct settings I get 0.4-0.5% drain/h in standby.
Just converted their Chromebook over to an AMD system running Fedora. Battery life is what you make it. If you run the processor on performance with the screen brightness high, yeah, it can go quickly. But I can also get a full work day out of it no problem, you just have to keep things in perspective. Plus, you can literally swap to a bigger battery. What other laptop can do that?
Build quality is the same as any other Linux laptop; that is to say, it doesn’t use the fanciest metals; the aluminum is cheap, but so is System76’s metal, which is what it is when you’re keeping costs down for customized laptops. Don’t drop your laptop; you’ll be fine.
Ports are a little limited, but nothing out of the norm for smaller laptops either. You do have the option to swap ports at any time, so there is plenty of versatility you can literally carry with you. Hell, don’t MacBooks only have two ports? Things could be much worse.
The truth is, there is no perfect Linux laptop. Either the Framework appeals, or it doesn’t. Trust that the same way you’re nitpicking Framework could be done to any brand. Find the one you like, and go with it. For some of us, that’s Framework, as it gets closer to our ideal than any other, which is kinda what using Linux is all about: fulfilling our personal ideals.
It’s definitely not jank. Huge fan of mine as well as some other folks here. Fw13 with AMD.
Love mine and daily drive it. Not janky, zero issues. Everything works on Linux. Not sure what you’re referring to.
Can you get more bang for your buck? Yes, to start. But let’s compare after a couple of upgrades on mine vs whole laptop replacements with other brands.
commenter was suggesting that framework allows you to “grow with your budget”
i don’t think this is exactly true in all situations
You can also buy it second hand or get an older version for less money and upgrade later.
The upgradability and reparability is also a cost saving factor on the longer run. I broke the screen once and instead of buying a new laptop or have a costly repair, I just got a replacement for 200 bucks and fixed it easily myself.
Yes, Framework!
It’s great, works perfectly, and you support something (principals, ways) worth supporting!
Something what won’t lead to/support further enshitification of all the things.
(And we might even get usable RISC–V laptops fairly soon - to even further ditch megacorps.)
I personally buy refurbished. Lately I got a Lenovo X280 thinkpad, for $160 with 8 GB of RAM, 1080p screen. Worked fine, Linux flies on it.
I had system76 and now on tuxedo. I will buy tuxedo again…
https://kfocus.org/spec/spec-ir16.html this is an absolute gem. Framework is way overhyped and its “upgradeability” is totally unrealistic at best, scam at worst. Repairability is a real point for framework though
You’re worried about the screen being worn out? How does a screen wear out (excluding maybe oled burn in, but this aint oled). And a good chassis shouldn’t show that much wear after a few years.
If the laptop is old enough to merit CPU upgrade, then its likely already experienced plenty of wear and tear. Also I never said anything about the screen wearing out, I specifically said the case. I gave credit that at least the screen would carry over
in a few years
You’d think the point of repair and upgrade would be for the laptop to exist and be used for more than just a “few years” (otherwise what is the point?) so consider the realistic and more likely case of upgrading it more than a few years from now. Its worth it to keep an old used case, especially when you are paying a premium for framework?
It’s great that it can be repaired easily though and there are internal parts available for purchase, but you can also find internal parts to many laptops available if you look for them, the only real difference is ease of repair
I considered buying framework for my laptop but once I thought about it realistically, it stopped making much sense.
What “merits” needing a CPU upgrade? I upgraded from a core i9 11950h to a 13900h machine because I needed more performance. That 11th gen machine still looks pristine besides one spot where a cat bit the corner of the lid. Even my piddling around machine wasn’t up to snuff and upgraded from a 10th gen i5 to a 12th gen system. That machine’s keyboard was a bit worn when I first got it, but it’s not (appreciably) worse now. Besides that and maybe the palm rest the chassis is in pretty good condition. Why does it matter if the keycaps are a little smooth? Or there’s a small scuff on one corner. Or a cat punctured the bezel of the display and somehow didn’t break anything.
Either you’re holding onto the case for many many years continuously upgrading, which I question why an old case is so valuable to not just replace it too when you replace the entire mainboard, or you’re not, which makes me question the entire “upgradeable” concept.
Either way it doesn’t really make sense. You can easily upgrade the parts that don’t require a whole new mainboard, already, on literally any other laptop (hard drives, RAM, network card, battery).
It’s neat that you can customize the ports on it and swap them out, which is the only real difference from any other laptop, but to me it seems like a gimmick and doesn’t justify framework premium price when there are plenty of laptops out there with the ports that I need already
Also upgrading CPUs that are so close in generation and only a marginal performance difference like you have done is atypical and does not reflect the purchasing behavior of 99% of users. There’s no real perceivable performance difference between those two CPUs for what most people actually use a laptop to do: web browse and word process.
replacing the entire guts
That’s not how it works at all though… What? The RAM and SSD are individually replaceable, and the screen, speaker system, and chassis all have individual upgrades that have been released with time too (for the 13, at least). The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade, and even then that’s just the mainboard, not the RAM, SSD, etc., which is pretty on-par with, say, a desktop anyway as often a meaningful CPU upgrade will include switching to a newer platform and therefore a new motherboard.
Not saying the Framework has no issues at all whatsoever, but that’s sure not one of them.
So… all the normal stuff that is normally upgradeable on a normal laptop is upgradeable for framework too? Good point…
The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade
That’s exactly my point, yes. Again, the “upgradeability” of a framework laptop is unrealistic at best and a scam at worst. It’s exactly as upgradeable as most laptops unless you’re replacing the whole mainboard which is not very realistic. By that point there is likely enough wear and tear that it makes no sense to keep the case, keyboard, and screen… and with framework premium prices you aren’t saving money on the SSD or RAM (which, no, you likely can’t reuse on a CPU upgrade, most likely you’ll be going DDR4->DDR5). I do give them credit for repairability, which is great, but “upgradeability” specifically is basically a marketing scam and will not make any sense for 99% of users.
I expected the downvotes on my comment because my opinion goes against the framework fanboys, but I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework. It is truly a great choice for linux compatibility
so all the normal stuff that’s normally upgradable
That’s just the thing, though. Soldered RAM and even drives is becoming more and more common these days, especially in the Apple space. But, the main thing here is user replaceable. I don’t know when you last swapped the RAM on a laptop, but on most consumer laptops these days it is a nightmare. With Framework, it’s 5 screws (the driver for which is included in the box, but also just standard torx) and you’re in, and they have a QR code to a guide on how to do the replacement for first timers. I know it can be hard to take if you’re used to pulling apart computers for fun, I come from there too, but the easy user upgradeability is seriously, literally, actually a great selling point on the Framework.
Also, the case, screen, trackpad, etc that get all the wear and tear are just as easily replaced if that’s your hang up.
especially in the Apple space
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops.
With Framework its 5 screws
Aw gee, then Framework wins! With Focus IR16 its nine phillips screws… 😩
OK I had a great weekend not thinking about this thread (Yes I know it’s not been the weekend for a couple of days now, it was extended), so I’m going to write one more message on this and then just leave it as is. My main issue is that you straight up said the upgradeability is a scam. It’s clear from this thread you’ve never worked in repair or had to upgrade a consumer-grade laptop from the last 10 years - which is fine but you shouldn’t go throwing around such harsh phrases as “scam” for it. Framework has a legitimately good product that could feasibly be the last laptop you ever buy - for example, their most recent refresh of the Framework 13 mainboard will work in the original chassis, despite numerous design revisions over the last 5 years. Very few other devices in the space, even those designed to be upgraded, can be brought up to the newest version with just a mainboard replacement (this is one of my biggest issues with FairPhone, but that’s not really related to the topic at hand). Similarly, the new 12" is more easily upgraded than ever with the swap to pogo pins on the keyboard rather than a ribbon cable for the keyboard. I truly think I could give my mother a Framework and she would be able to keep it up-to-date without any input from the members of my family who have repair experience.
On this topic:
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops
The Asahi Linux project is nothing to sneeze at, and some of the most competent Linux users I know are on either an Intel or M-whatever Mac. Being an Apple device does not exclude it from being a Linux laptop, though I would never personally recommend them to a user, new or old.
On this because I forgot to address it:
I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework
It does look like a good laptop, and I think you should have separated your comments out because now your actually pretty decent recommendation is going to be buried because it was paired with an unrelated and fairly ignorant take.
nine phillips screws…
Credit where credit is due, I would have like phillips, but I do also understand the use case for torx on the Framework (plus it comes with a screwdriver, which fixes the main “who has a torx driver?” issue with torx). Either way, I’m not looking to discount the potential reparability or upgradeability of the IR16, I don’t have one and can’t weigh in there, If your position had been “This laptop manages to actually be more upgradeable than the Framework, whilst also being built for Linux first”, there would be no problem there (provided you could back that claim up), but outright calling it a scam? Come on man…
Long and short, no, I would not call the upgradeability of the Framework a “marketing scam”. Thus far, a Framework laptop 13 built the day they released 5 years ago could be not only continually used and repaired for those 5 years, but also brought up-to-date with the latest hardware with relatively little user effort in comparison to similarly sized and spec’d consumer laptops, and without needing to buy a whole new device - you can just “ship of Theseus” the thing. Note that when I say “hardware”, I don’t just mean the fun buzzword-y hardware like CPU and RAM, but also things like keyboards, speakers, the screen, the charger/cable, and other similar components that a user is less likely to think about wanting to improve at the time of purchase, but would otherwise be hurting for newer versions of 5+ years down the line.
Can framework physically be upgraded? Yes. Is that practical, realistic, or something the makes sense for a typical user to actually do (beyond RAM and hard drives, which is common to be able to replace on most laptops already)? No. See all the reasons I’ve already covered. To market the product based on that like it is something great that a user will expect to do and why they should buy it, is pretty scammy behavior, especially when the laptop is priced at a premium and this is justified by these impractical features.
Ir16 is as repairable and as easy as framework to replace/upgrade typical components as one should expect for a laptop, like RAM, hard drives, and network card. You remove 9 screws, the bottom panel comes right off, and there is access to those components. I wouldn’t expect to easily replace other parts of it or the entire mainboard, but again, no one is practically going to be doing that with framework either anyway.
an unrelated and fairly ignorant take
It’s actually related (given all of the comments suggesting framework and parroting scam marketting points), and not ignorant, just realistic. People often want to defend their purchase after they’ve been duped.
If something supports linux-libre kernel, it supports all distros. See https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Hardware-Considerations.html
Also: https://www.h-node.org/
Depends on budget but if your budget is above $800 get a framework they are awesome and work great with Linux if your budget is below that look at an e series Thinkpad or used thinkpad on eBay that fits your budget
You can get a used thinkpad T480 off eBay for ~$150. I’ve dropped it multiple times and spilled orange juice on it and it works perfectly fine. No issues running Linux mint Debian edition. Main drawback is the fan which isn’t the most efficient at cooling, but it is upgradeable.
Best is Framework in every regard. Works 100%, great Linux support, specify exactly what you want and it’s fully repairable. (They’re also by far the most satisfying machine to unbox, given you have to plug it all together yourself)
Lenovo and Dell are okay, in my experience. The odd thing but generally fair quality hardware and reasonably compatible. (Thinkpad quality isn’t what it used to be, so don’t pay a premium thinking it’ll last, Lenovo are trading on its past glories)
Avoid HP - shoddy flimsy things now, and with a lot of bespoke drivers (graphics and audio, plus function buttons in particular)
There’s quite a lot of random-branded Chinese laptops around now. I’ve no direct experience of them, but I imagine they’re exactly how you’d expect them to be. Cheap, tailored for the OS they ship with, but will probably work to some degree. Linux is past its initial hardware problems (and to be fair, hardware is problematic now)
There’s another thread that’s a few years old, but still contains some useful info - such as “Check the Arch Wiki”
I’ve used ThinkPads for ages and it’s very true they have become more and more ordinary as the years go by, but I recently got given a high spec Dell for a new job and it’s been very disappointing. In particular the keyboard is terrible to the point that on business trips I bring an external keyboard with me. I also sorely miss a trackpoint, but to many people that is not an issue.
I was also surprised that I miss the ThinkPad ability to open up 180°.
My top pick for a Linux laptop would be the Dell XPS 13 9310. It’s old I guess, from 2020. But the build quality and Linux support is excellent. You could get a used one from eBay for around 400USD.
Alternatively, maybe you could look for a used Thinkpad X1 Carbon. I’ve purchased several of those in the past and have had really good experiences with them. The hardware is great and the software support is excellent.
I would avoid Framework. I actually just switched back to the Dell XPS 13 9310 after a year of using the Framework. Linux support on the Framework is just not as good as some other laptops. The biggest con of Framework is the HiDPI display. You will never get the display to look good. You’ll have to do a ton of tweaking and debugging—and you’ll still have some apps that are blurry or have weirdly sized icons or text. See: https://lemmy.today/post/22761155/13770242
I haven’t used the XPS 13 personally but my experience and all my friends’ experience with the XPS lineup is that despite their build quality, they’re quite prone to failure. On my 15, the keyboard failed multiple times, as well as one of the fans and eventually one thunderbolt port, all within a span of 4 years.
They’re beautiful machines that really should be quality, but in practice for some reason they haven’t lasted for me. On the plus side though, Dell does at least offer service manuals, and lots of parts can be replaced by a user (on the 15 you can easily replace fans, RAM, SSDs, and with some work you can replace the top deck, display, and SD reader).
the keyboard failed multiple times, as well as one of the fans and eventually one thunderbolt port
Aw, dang. That sucks.
I’m typing this on a 2020 9310 and fortunately it’s been pretty solid for me. Everything still works great. If anything, the palm rests are a little worn now, but that’s about it. I also have an older XPS 9370 from 2018 that I keep as a spare and that’s still working fine as well.
I haven’t had to open up this laptop yet, but good to know there are service manuals. Thanks!
I’m glad to hear yours have been holding up! Maybe my friends and I were just particularly unlucky.
The service manuals are available direct from Dell. For all the laptop’s faults in my experience, I do appreciate that the SSDs are socketed, as are the RAM sticks on the 15. I do also appreciate that Dell sells replacement batteries (and they aren’t glued in either!) as that’s usually the first part to need a swap.
I’m hearing good things about Framework, provided you get the hinge upgrade.
If you need something beefier, personally I’m using a Lenovo Legion 7 (2024 version… that white one, bought it a few months ago), and I’m loving it. Linux Mint worked out of the box, but I chose to replace the stock wifi driver with a better one.
What’s the deal with the hinge upgrade?
I have no first hand experience, but I read about it here recently:
https://www.projectgus.com/2024/09/18-months-with-framework-laptop/He has another post named “20 months…etc”, where he has done something tweaks and upgrades, and it’s all good.
I had one of the initial batches and the hinge was too weak. They came out with stronger ones that are much better which I now have. It was cheap and easy to replace
Do they just use the good ones in new models now?
Yes
Consider taking a look at this criminally underrated Linux-first vendor: NovaCustom. Prices aren’t cheap, unfortunate. But it boasts hardware from about a year ago. Furthermore, NovaCustom takes Libre very seriously: from supporting coreboot to offering blob-free WiFi-cards.
You said not a high budget, and yet everyone here is saying Framework even though the they are $900 to $1,000 at the low end. To me that is not budget.
Pine64 is affordable but maybe too slow to be a daily driver, unless you feel confident finding your way through ultralightweight software and the command line and can do most of your problem solving that way.
For other pre-built options, there’s Starlabs and System76 but those are similarly priced to Librem and Framework.
Beyond that I might just research Windows laptops that are agreeable to being formatted.
I have an all amd alienware m17 r5 I got $2000 off at around 1200$ pretty fire, 6850mxt = 3080 laptop, ive had no issues running most things, msfs needs hella tweaking on windows but past that even vr stuff mostly works fine
Frameworks cool if you can afford it, but if you want the best perfomance/deals, then laptops go on sale for half off or 70% off often, you just gotta check daily since they sell out within the day for those deals
Give yourself a month to look at deals, its around week 3 for me where I usually purchasep
