I distro hopped for a bit before finally settling in Debian (because Debian was always mentioned as a distro good for servers, or stable machines that are ok with outdated software)
And while I get that Debian does have software that isn’t as up to date, I’ve never felt that the software was that outdated. Before landing on Debian, I always ran into small hiccups that caused me issues as a new Linux user - but when I finally switched over to Debian, everything just worked! Especially now with Debian 13.
So my question is: why does Debian always get dismissed as inferior for everyday drivers, and instead mint, Ubuntu, or even Zorin get recommended? Is there something I am missing, or does it really just come down to people not wanting software that isn’t “cutting edge” release?
I spent most of last year running LMDE6 and while it started off good, things just got more frustrating to troubleshoot and the system felt buggier over time. (Which I know is not how things are supposed to be for “stable” Debian.) Switched to CachyOS a couple months ago and things work so much smoother.
One thing I have yet to seen brung up in the replies yet, is Debian Testing and Debian Unstable
I have been using unstable on my desktop no issues,I would say that it is suprisingly stable, I only had one breakage so far and I have used it for one year as my main and sole system
Personally, yeah it’s the old packages. I want to play games on my desktop and have the newest DE features. An arch based distro seems like it’ll keep up better than Debian.
For my servers though, I only use Debian.
Ok, so it seems that gaming is a recurring theme from the few comments so far.
My curiosity then would lead me to wonder opinions from a non-gaming standpoint.
Do you think you would mind as much if you didn’t use your machine for gaming? Would the slightly older packages still affect you?
People asking for distro recommendations usually ask for their desktop.
Debian is great, but it’s hardly ever the best choice for a desktop, at least not for the kind of people who ask for distro recommendations.
I’ve used it for a few years. What issue does it have for a desktop? I’ve had everything “just work”.
Old packages in repos. I tried some stuff on LLM and VR and ubuntu had package more updated than Debian. That sad you have to reinstall Ubuntu each time you have to do a security update…
Debian might work but it will always be behind and if any performance upgrades are done at a kernel level or a DE then you won’t get them until those fixes are potentially already obsolete.
Debian is not behind. Changed enter the repos pretty quickly and every 25 months you get a release. Which is perfect, as it means I don’t have to maintenance for my mother that often.
Still there are security patches.
If you want the newest shiny stuff, use Testing or Unstable. I’ve done that for years, for that is not the right choice for everyone, as things change on the time. And I don’t get paid for the tech support I do for my family, so I’d rather see them have larger changes less often. Family would agree, as they find it difficult to learn how to deal with the changes.
Even Debian unstable can be months behind a lot of fixes for gaming related things.
VR for example is a fucking nightmare in general but God FUCK you wait months behind fedora or arch for a lot of fixes on Debian.
then why do people suggest Mint so often?
Mint is Debian based but isn’t Debian.
Same with Ubuntu.
The reason people recommend mint is it’s easy to install and has a familiar DE.
I was talking about the update timing, Mint isn’t very up to date which can have downsides
This is what I got blindsided by when I tried out Mint a decade ago. OS is up to date and pretty, but kernel/drivers? Old, or “stable”.
And it’s weird seeing all of these recommendations for Mint on YouTube/social media this past year. And then watching the videos everyone is just gawking about Cinnamon…which you can install on any other distro too.
Lots of normies hopping on the Linux train and have no idea what they’re getting into lol
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when people insist that the kernel is not old, it’s “stable” lol
Because till recently gaming on Linux was a f****** joke and meant being really easy to install and basically a derivative of Ubuntu without having to deal with canonical made it a popular choice for all of the long-time Linux uses. So it’s just what they suggested.
In reality meant is no better than just telling people to install Ubuntu or Debian if they want to game. If you just play older games then it’s whatever and it doesn’t really matter. But if you’re trying to do some niche gaming like VR or something, basically anything that uses apt is a massive pain in the f****** ass
Sure it works but you almost always end up waiting months longer than everyone else for fixes and considering some things can get updated multiple times a week for major fixes. Having to wait months for a big cumulative thing is just not okay.
Definitely! So if you’re using specialized hardware or software or third-party apps. A lot of stuff has actually gone to the point where they don’t even support Debian and Ubuntu or other activate systems. They only support Fedora or Arch
Since those are the only ones that really ever have a up-to-date libraries to actually be usable for purpose without having to do a bunch of funky s***.
Debian like normal is your best option if it works for you, it is the most reliable that you can really get. But the moment something is outside of scope of it. You’re almost always better off just using literally anything f****** else.
Everything in Debian just works, but people are looking for more features than Debian offers out of the box.
I can see why people would want Debian if they’ve been burned couple of times by distros that move very fast and break stuff.
There is absolutely no issue with it.
But there are lots of other distros that add things to it which are great for desktop.
GUI tools for driver installation and kernel switching, snapshots, preinstalled Steam+Wine+Codecs+Flatpak, newer and more software, atomic updates, a faster package manager, more third party support, etc.Debian is better than it ever was, but so are lots of other distros, especially the ones that build on it.
Nowadays you really have the choice between “good” and “better”.My parents for example do not care about tools for drivers installation (everything works just fine already), they don’t know what a kernel is (so there’s no need to switch), snapshots/Flatpak/Steam/Wine/faster package manager are not important (they don’t know what any of that is).
They use a browser and occasionally a text editor, that’s it. Debian + GNOME works really well for them.
Often something simple is just right.
GPU drivers and DEs lagging behind, mostly.
Something like Fedora which releases newer code quicker will provide a better desktop/laptop experience. It’s the same reason other stable distros, like the EL distros, aren’t the best for desktops/laptops.
Historically, desktop applications would also be versions behind, but Flatpak really helps with this.
At this point, Debian is probably fine as a distro for a few year old computer that won’t be helped by fractional scaling. Pick a DE and install applications from Flathub.
It really depends on the situation. Hardware support is definitely better than it used to be and everything in linux is hackable regardless of distribution if needed, but the reason I haven’t switched my main tower from Arch to Debian is that fear of requiring extra work for things like gaming and music production. If you’re running the newest and latest hardware you might run into an issue depending on the kernel version being used, etc.,
That being said, I use Debian every day on my thinkpad and love it. I have an interest in migrating away from Ubuntu Server and toward Debian for servers as well. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it “not recommended”, just similar caution expressed.
Outside of security patches probably won’t be the latest version of apps available, so the software you use can be out of date and you will have to wiat for new features that have been. Flatpak mostly solves this for gui user-level apps, but it’s not set up by default and can require tinkering with permissions to fix some issues. If you have new hardware it might not work well with the kernel that comes installed, but you can enable backports and get a newer one. Practically half the linux exo-system is built on top of debian, so you can get a different distro built on debian but with better default experience or custom guis for certain tasks like managing drivers, so people you can save time and not have to dive into terminal commands following how-to guides for various things.
For reasons similar to why plain bread doesn’t show up in sandwich recommendations.
That’s my take too… it’s certainly a soild choice, but not incredibly exciting.
boring is awesome if you need to just work all the time and for a long time.
Debian is the absolute goat so long as your work flow fits inside of the scope of Debian which 99% of everybody’s well, even most regular normal gamers will do just fine in Debian using flat packs.
You just have to also accept the fact that if you’re doing something niche like VR gaming or using weird third-party custom hardware or something Debian sucks ass. A lot of my VR kit straight up doesn’t even support anything that uses apt.
It only supports Fedora and Arch. Because a lot of it straight up will not work with flat pack anything. There’s just no support and s*** brakes constantly. You need up-to-date libraries and some of these libraries update multiple times a week. It’s just not inside the scope of something like Debian.
Always try Debian first. If it doesn’t work then try something else. It’s usually the best rule of thumb.
That’s why I recommend it for non-technical users that just need something to browse the web, Debian will not disappoint them.
Also, GNOME is good for that. Many believe it has to look like Windows for less technical people, but people nowadays mostly are more used to Android than Windows, so having overview of open apps, a menu with shutdown and brightness and volume and sort of an app launcher seems quite natural to them.
Recently installed it for people that have never used Linux before and they immediately got it. One of the two struggles with writing emails and attaching files and things like that, but GNOME is simple for them.
Often simple solutions are the best, flashy solutions break and don’t give the stability that’s expected.
Plain bread is not a fair comparison, Debian is like an old familiar sandwich you keep going back to because it’s not fancy, it doesn’t use over the top ingredients so it digests very well.
Like ham and cheese in a restaurant.
Debian is more like AOSP. It’s a starting point. Super bare. More commonly used in servers and such.
Super bare. 🤣🤣🤣
Debian is probably Thee most supported distro with the most packages available.
Debian is also among the absolute best among Linux desktop options, and actually quite popular.
There’s a reason Debian is still the most forked distro.Debian is probably Thee most supported distro with the most packages available.
I’m not talking about availability. I’m talking about comes pre-installed so the user doesn’t have to go out and find them to use basic functionality.
Debian is also among the absolute best among Linux desktop options, and actually quite popular.
I did not say it was not great or popular.
There’s a reason Debian is still the most forked distro.
This is not the dunk you think it is…
I’m talking about comes pre-installed
Apart from Steam not being a standard installed item, it is very feature full.
For 32 bit you also need to enable multi-arch.But apart from gaming it is in no way bare and very very far from “super bare”. Ans Steam is pretty easy to install.
I did not say it was not great or popular.
You wrote it was mostly for servers. Which although it is an excellent server distro, it is most definitely developed at least as much for desktop use.
This is not the dunk you think it is…
I don’t think you really understand the implications.
Apart from Steam not being a standard installed item, it is very feature full.
I’ve just given you several examples of how it’s not.
For 32 bit you also need to enable multi-arch.
Just making my point for me now.
You wrote it was mostly for servers
No I wrote that’s it’s more commonly used in servers.
I don’t think you really understand the implications.
I don’t think you do.
I think you’re treating this like a pit fight.
I dunno what that means. I gave what I felt like a very simple take and this person showed to argue with me, not the other way around.
It looks like one of you is treating the other as a person deserving of respectful conversation.
While I get what you mean about things being pre-installed for super new people to Linux/terminal. . . If it has a apt package, it’s as easy as “sudo apt install xyz”. Also, I thi k Debian comes with the synaptic package manager which makes it fairly easy to install as well. With that said though, I do see your point, as it’s one more hurdle.
If it has a apt package, it’s as easy as “sudo apt install xyz”
This is the kind of ignorant shit that relegates Linux to nerd circles. What do you do with this information? What is xyz, and exactly xyz because if you get a single letter wrong it does not work. Further the user has to already know what they want, which a new user will not.
Also things tend to be older on Debian which isn’t the fit for more gaming oriented systems. Due to optimization not being yet available and drivers for the latest hardware
Ah, ok - yeah I can definitely see how for gaming it might not be ideal. I’ve never thought Linux was all that smooth of a transition for gamers though, no matter what OS you’re using - but I guess that heavily depends on the games you’re playing.
I guess that heavily depends on the games you’re playing
I think this is the key thing.
If you’re always buying the newest GPU to play the latest tech- envelope-pushing AAA title that requires the latest greatest driver, then you’re probably not going to have a good time with gaming on Debian.
But some of us don’t care about those types of games, or maybe in some cases we do but are willing to wait a while to play a particular title (hello Patient Gamers). In that case Debian is a nice, rock solid gaming platform.
Anecdotally, I probably do 85+% of my gaming on Debian (the rest being my steam deck). And it works fine for me because of the types of games I play and/or how long I tend to wait before getting new titles (giving Debian time to catch up).
It’s definitely not for every gamer, but I don’t think it’s as unusable for gaming as people often suggest.
Gaming on Linux has been really good for the last several years. The main issue is certain multiplayer games that intentionally block Linux users.
It’s pretty smooth on bazzite aside from kernel anti-cheat games. Just run em through steam, even pirated games
Even with games that usually use kernal anti-cheat systems like battleeye, some games specifically have enabled proton support and just work as well.
The problem hasn’t been compatibility for a long time, it was developers intentionally blacklisting Linux in their anticheat. Turns out a lot of people hate their customers having freedom in their software
I don’t know the AOSP acronym so I’ll take a guess: Always On Server Platform?
Android open source project. It’s the base behind every android variation, but it has pretty generic software (although sometimes better than the alternatives companies choose to ship instead).
Android Open Source Project, it’s the open base that the actual Android releases are built upon. It’s not really usable as is, since it lacks the required kernel blobs and software that people have come to expect (like Google’s proprietary stuff).
What would be considered “bare” about it? Granted, I’m not gaming on it or anything, but I’ve found it to work pretty well out of the box, just downloading software as I need - but nothing that has caused any sort of headache due to missing drivers or anything like that.
To me it seems like it would be pretty simple for most people to switch over from windows - albiet maybe not for the super beginners that have never seen a command line - but for most semi-tech literate, I would think it would be a decent entry into Linux.
Genuinely curious what is actually stripped down or missing, because maybe it’s just something that I’m not even aware that I’m missing out on, lol
Older drivers won’t support newer hardware. Only includes default apps from gnome and KDE. No DE tweaks to speak of. No performance optimizations. No Gear Lever. No fractional scaling implemented, etc. etc.
I guess it makes sense that I’m comfortable with using Debian then, lol, because I don’t know what most of those things you mentioned are - haha.
Thanks for the explanation though :)
no fractional scaling? thats a DE/WM feature not distro related
old drivers? so is every stable point release distro unless you go out of your way to get an to date kernel,
only includes default apps? you mean following the DE’s developer’s vision? (sure for gnome it is a downside for most, tweaks should 100% be included on all gnome installs)
It is a distro thing. It requires configuration and most good distros have it pre-configured.
no fractional scaling? thats a DE/WM feature not distro related
Lots of distros these days come out of the box with that pre-configured, so no, it’s not.
only includes default apps? you mean following the DE’s developer’s vision?
Yes.
I recommend Linux Mint Debian Edition to anybody who will listen
i’m guessing by the name that it’s based on debian instead of ubuntu?
does that it doesn’t have snap?
Based on Debian instead of Ubuntu, but still an official release. I didn’t quite understand the second question, sorry. Mint doesn’t allow snap by default.
i was wondering if it came with snaps enabled by default and you’ve answered it.
how about the desktop environment, is it still stock gnome/kde/lxde/xfce/whatever?
Cinnamon
It’s not user-oriented the way the distros based on it are. apt is mediocre and slow compared to a lot of other distros package managers.
The out of date software is really important for new users for one big reason, and that’s hardware compatibility. Arch Linux, especially with AUR DKMS, can work with basically anything supported by Linux. Debian will struggle with anything sorta new. Having on old kernel, like Debian does, is one of the worst things a distro can do, for performance, for compatibility, and more.
Their software is also actually super duper out of date, too. To the point where KDE on Debian and Kubuntu is several versions out of being supported. A lot of software developers are sick of people reporting fixed issues because the user is using Debian, so they tell them to use a more up to date distro.
Also has to be said that KDE on those slower-moving distros is actually buggier than on up-to-date distros. I have to use Kubuntu LTS at work and it has so many more glitches and crashes compared to openSUSE Tumbleweed and NixOS on my personal laptop.
Shut up Debbie! Nobody likes your name!
Because linux distribution recommendations are written by people who have nothing better to do than be hypnotized by the jangling keys of whatever’s new or hot for people who have nothing better to do than be hypnotized by the jangling keys of whatever’s new or hot.
It’s the same reason rhel doesn’t get recommended tbh.
That’s true a lot of reviews are from people who don’t spend more than a few hours with a distro. But I think out of the box experience matters quite a bit. I don’t like configuring and customizing stuff myself all that much and for people new to Linux it obviously matters even more that things are smooth sailing from the beginning.
the jangling keys
So historically not manjaro.
well there is more to the lack of RHEL recomendation, no sane person likes corporate lock in and although rhel is fairly open there is always a little bit more than with debian
Debian is generalist, with it’s strongest strength being it’s stability. That said, I’m not sure who I would recommend it to. Zorin or Mint would be better for new linux users, and Debian’s slower updates mean it will fall behind other distros for anyone wanting games. Also the rise of immutable distros means that it’s stability isn’t as much of a selling point as it used to be, if I’m worried about a kid messing up the install an immutable distro would be better than Debian probably.
I have a lot of respect for Debian, but the main people I hear using it these days are more experienced linux users who want to settle down (done distro hopping) and just have a reliable computer for non-gaming stuff.
Mostly, this makes sense to me - but at the end you stated that people who want to settle down and have a reliable computer for non gaming stuff - and I would think that this would be a parallel userbase for non gamers coming from windows. Granted you did say “experienced” Linux users, but I honestly find Debian to be extremely noob friendly after the initial Linux familiarization of how installing apps and such works. And with LLMs these days, troubleshooting any issues is pretty easy, especially on .deb . Idk, maybe I’ve just become a fanboy or something, but I just feel that the distro gets overlooked as an overly stable/outdated option for servers when I’ve had an absolute great experience so far as a daily driver (of course, not playing games)
Also the rise of immutable distros means that it’s stability isn’t as much of a selling point as it used to be
in my experience, most distros have become more stable over the years, closing the gap with debian
for example, i’ve only borked my arch install to the point i had to mess with it for 20 mins before i could get it to boot again once in the ~5 years i’ve used it as my daily and i’m not exactly careful with it
Because those recommendations are written for new users. A new user will be better served by a distribution which puts user-friendliness at its forefront. If you’re not a newbie you probably don’t need recommendations because you already know what distributions are available out there.
My FP right now:
The fact the other post was on /selfhosted kind of makes op’s point.
It felt like a “Missed Connections” ad in a newspaper. (If you’re under 40, you might have to look up what that is)
