I wish Nvidia agreed.
Sorry but pipewire is shit and it works with Wayland (didn’t see anything Wayland uses pulseaudio) and I believe Wayland still not ready for use, It’s unstable for me because pipewire crackling like fire
Pipewire works fine on my Intel 5960x, Intel N3700, Intel 9900k, Intel 9700, AMD 4800HS and even my Intel ES Erying system. No pops or crackles from any inputs or outputs.
I’ve not tried with a dedicated sound card, just the onboard on all these systems.
Running KDE on one system along with Hyprland on another two with the remainder as headless systems.
You sure this issue isn’t somehow related to your hardware or something else?
No, pulseaudio working fine but pipewire isn’t, it’s a spare old PC HP COMPAQ 6005 pro SFF with AMD Phenom II X4 B97 ram 8GB ddr3 and its sound card SBx00 AZALIA Intel HDA Pipewire crackling while pulseaudio working without problems
Unsure if the issue is fixed upstream in the kernel however there are a few topics going in depth about this issue with some reported fixes / workarounds.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/3182
https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/crackling-microphone/22173
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/1569#note_1102615
Good luck with the issue, hopefully one of these links fixes that problem for you 🍻
Get your shit together. You make no sense.
I make perfect sense to people who actually read what I said. PipeWire issues aren’t imaginary.
I understood you and had the same issue. I solved it by using an Apple USBC to mini jack audio device instead of onboard. Not ideal. Not sure if it’s still a problem though.
Edit. My mistake I had the problem with Pulse not Pipewire.
to the unavoidable “it’s been 15 years” comments: 15-year-old x11 was a piece of shit. the difference is that we had no alternative so we had to put up with it
You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don’t get 100 comments
I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
SystemD is really bloated tho
I’m not saying we should all be using runit, but with systemD making more and more services only work through their init system just creates more vendor lock in
Like, who needs a cronjob alternative that only works if you use SystemD, limiting your software to people using it and locking out everyone needing a less bloated init system like runit? And who needs a systemD calendar?
Systemd won’t be done until they port libre office to it dammit!
Depends what you mean by bloat. It has a very large repo, but it compiles into little commands with least privilege execution. A lot of those commands are specifically there so someone doesn’t have to pull in other repos with a larger attack surface. e.g. there is a time sync daemon to replace having to pull in ntp which is a lot more complex and fraught and the one thing most desktops need of NTP which is to set the clock.
Yeah. Over on
MoronixPhoronix, every article about Rust, systemd, Wayland or –to a lesser extent– GNOME is a troll fest.
As an average desktop user, I’ve run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
Same. I booted up NixOS with Gnome around 5 months ago and it took a second for me to realize it was defaulting to Wayland. I was running it on an ancient Asus gaming laptop with nouveau drivers and the experience was overall smooth. Had it multi screened with my TV, too.
Yes it’s been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it’s not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That’s a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a “i want to screen cast” message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it’s a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
until you start using it and screenrecords dont work, multimonitor setups work once and then fail forever… systemd,wayland, unity, ubuntuOne and all that stupid shit can right f off.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn’t give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this as a major security improvement - you can screen record but only if permission is granted.
maybe?! but from the votes here you can see that the wayland supporters can be nothing but shit people. and that is how nixos died. and this is how wayland is already dead.
nixos had a toxic insane community of ppl like this: other opionion = downvote. Or check mozilla…millions of request for improvement, but the idiots focus on telemetry, terrible guis and so on. Firefox is at 1% marketshare??
I have seen it too often by now. if criticism like that triggers the hardcore fans, you know you do not ever want to be part of that fan base.
furthermore, you are a disappointment.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service).
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Wow, someone needs to grow up. You laid into Wayland when screen recording doesn’t even go through Wayland. The app asks the WM to screen record via DBus. A more constructive response would have been “thanks I didn’t know that”, or perhaps “oh it’s a driver issue”, or “it’s an issue with that WM/ffmpeg/pipewire or whatever”, or anything else likely to be the underlying cause. But it’s not Wayland. Have you got that? Not Wayland. There is no need to be sore and immature about it.
How can I fix the multi monitor thing?? Whenever I connect my TV screen everything freezes unless I unplug one of my desktop monitors.
I’ve never had a problem with multi monitor (knock on wood). I had to get around screen recording in the past, but I thought that was ironed out. I’ll check that out today.
The only hiccups I’ve run into so far is that the KDE color picker (the dedicated widget and the screenshot tool) is off by one shade. I grab #222222 and it gets #212121. I got around that by using Flameshot. And that’s more on KDE’s end afaik.
The other hiccup is constant alerts asking for input permissions when I use something like an autohotkey or autoclicker.
I’m not saying its perfect yet. I’m saying they’ve busted ass getting it to where it is in such a short amount of time. Its incredibly usable to me for how young Wayland is.
I am saying the devs are the assholes I will spit on at any con. From google search anyone can see plenty ppl have problems with multimonitor and more. the community is just toxic like the other fail-communities. E.g. systemd…equally wrong and crap. And I am sure a majority of former windows users will yeet their brain into the arena to say that it is wrong to critize systemd. if systemd would be good, the adoption rate would not have been overtaken by alpine linux. and so wayland, electron and all the other stupid ideas are dead on arrival while ppl will still use and defend them like they are paid by redhat.
In this current state it’s currently only in a few des (kde and gnome and lxqt has it stable) and windows manager(wayfire and Sway and qtile has it stable) but maybe in the future it will be most des
Is fractional scaling functional?
It was for a long time.
I use that on Hyprland for a year or 2 now
It has been since like 2022 at least for me. I was on X11 and it looked blurry as hell. Same thing on wayland. One day, out of the blue a KDE update dropped and boom everything was crisp and clear. I thank the lords of wayland everyday 🛐. Since then, it has only gotten better
Awesome. I tried Wayland a year or two ago but it broke QT stuff back then so it was a no-go. I should really give it another try soon.
For me X11 just flat out doesn’t work, fucks up the icons and scaling. Unusable.
I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it’s worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.
“rough start” is putting it mildly. 🤭
I have a shitload of bug/weird behavior with Wayland, I hope it gets better but for me it is not there yet.
Like what? (Curious)
I’m glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.
At leasr it just works with tailsOS
Rough start? It’s been over a decade and it’s still rough.
Whats rough?
I will never understand what is rough. Ive been using fedora kde for what … 2-3 years now? More?
2 years ago there were some issues with nvidia, but that is fixed now mostly.
I use it for work, there is an ocasional hiccup, that gets fixed next reboot, something like a terminal not resizing just right but … thats it?
People dont like change man, in the day and age when tech changes at breakneck speed, people dont like change
Now consider that most enterprises are about five years behind that. Takes a few years before what’s available in Fedora trickles down to RHEL, and a few more years before it’s rolled out to clients. Ubuntu is on a similar timeline.
The fixes you got two years ago might be rolled out in 3 years in these places. Oh, and these are the people forking up much of the money for the Wayland development efforts. The current state of Wayland if you pay for it is kinda meh.
RHEL 9 defaulted to Wayland in 2022. RHEL 10 will not even include Xorg.
I agree that businesses lag, often by years. So the fact that RHEL is so far along in the Wayland transition kind of shows how out-of-date the anti-Wayland rhetoric is.
Exactly my point. The issues people consider ”solved” with wayland today will be solved in production in 3-5 years.
People are still running RHEL 7, and Wayland in RHEL 9 isn’t that polished. In 4-5 years when RHEL 10 lands, it might start to be usable. Oh right, then we need another few years for vendors to port garbage software that’s absolutely mission critical and barely works on Xorg, sure as fuck won’t work in xwayland. I’m betting several large RHEL-clients will either remain on RHEL8 far past EOL or just switch to alternative distros.
Basically, Xorg might be dead, but in some (paying commercial) contexts, Wayland won’t be a viable option within the next 5-10 years.
Well, we’re currently in the process of porting apps away from Windows Server 2012 and CentOS 7.
What you’re describing is just how the industry works, not specific to Wayland.
Things like desktop automation, screen sharing, screen recording, remote desktop etc. are incredibly broken, with no hope in sight because the core design of Wayland simply didn’t account for them(!?), apparently.
Add to that the decision to push everything downstream into compositors, which led to widespread feature fragmentation and duplicated effort.
Add to that antagonizing the largest graphics chipset manufacturer (by usage among Linux desktop users) for no good reason. Nvidia has never had an incentive to cater to the Linux desktop, so Linux desktop users sending them bad vibes is… neither here nor there. It certainly won’t make them move faster.
Add to that the million little bugs that crop up when you try to use Wayland with any of the desktop apps whose developers aren’t snorting the Koolaid and not dedicating oustanding effort to catching up to Wayland – which is most of them.
people dont like change
I cannot use Wayland.
I’m an average Linux desktop user, who has an Nvidia card, has no need for Wayland “security”, doesn’t have multiple monitors with different refresh rates, uses desktop automation, screen sharing, screen recording, remote desktop on a daily basis, and uses lots of apps which don’t work perfectly with Wayland.
…how and why would I subject myself to it? I’d have to be a masochist.
screen sharing, screen recording, remote desktop
ive used all three on wayland without issues.
Things like desktop automation, screen sharing, screen recording, remote desktop etc. are incredibly broken, with no hope in sight because the core design of Wayland simply didn’t account for them(!?), apparently.
All of those things function on Wayland using the right protocols. If they dont work for you, either the DE/WM you use has not implemented the protocols, or the app you’re using has chosen not to implement Wayland support yet.
For automation there is ydotool and wlrctl. Ive also seen a tool called Hawck which seems neat, but I haven’t tried it.
I’ve never seen an issue with screen recording, OBS has worked fine with Wayland for a long time. I use GPU Screen Recorder on Wayland everyday.
Screensharing portals have existed for a while now, I haven’t run into any apps that still haven’t implemented them. Ive used it just fine on Discord and through multiple browsers.
Remote desktop also has a portal that any remote desktop app could implement. Rustdesk has experimental Wayland support which has worked for me. GNOME and Plasma also have built in RDP.
Are you a Debian Stable user perhaps? It feels like you have been trapped on an island alone and are not aware that WWII is over.
Not sure if it was a plasma issue or a wayland issue, but I tried it last year and had trouble with cursor locking.
Virtualbox had issues with the input being intermittent, and my mouse would move off the screen while gaming.
It might be fixed now, but I don’t plan on trying it again for another few years, because what I’m using works for me.
I’ll bite. It’s getting better, but still a long way to go.
- No commercially viable remote desktop or thin client solutions. I’m not talking about just VNC, take a look at for example ThinLinc to see what I’m looking for - a complete solution. (Also, it took like ten rough years before basic unencrypted single user VNC was available at all.) Free multimillion dollar business idea right here folks!
- Related to the above point - software rendered wayland is painful. To experience this yourselves, install any distro in VirtualBox or VMWare or whatever and compare the usability between a Xorg DE (with compositing turned off) and the same Wayland DE. Just look at the click-to-photon latency and weep. I’ve seen X11 perform better with VNC over WAN.
- ”We don’t need network transparency, VNC will save us”. See points above.
- ”Every frame is perfect” went just as well as can be expected, there is a reason VSYNC is an option in games and professional graphics applications. Thanks Valve.
- I’m assuming wlroots still won’t work on Nvidia, and that the Gnome/KDE implementations are still a hodgepodge, and that Nvidia will still ask me to install the supported Xorg drivers. If I’m wrong, it only took a decade or so to get a desktop working on hardware from the dominant GPU vendor. (Tangentially related - historically the only vendor with product lines specifically for serving GPU-accelerated desktops to thin clients)
- After over a decade of struggles, we can finally (mostly) share out screens in Zoom. Or so I’m told.
But what do I know, I’ve only deployed and managed desktop linux for a few thousand people. People were screaming about these design flaws back in 2008 when this all started. The criticisms above were known and dismissed as FUD, and here we are. A few architectural changes back then, and we could have done this migration a decade faster. Just imagine, screen sharing during the pandemic!
As an example, see Arcan, a small research project with an impressively large subset of features from both X11 and Wayland (including working screen sharing, network transparency and a functioning security model). I wouldn’t use it in production, but if it was more than one guy in a basement working on it, it would probably be very usable fairly fast, compared to the decade and half that RedHat and friends have poured into Wayland thus far. Using a good architecture from the start would have done wonders. And Wayland isn’t even close to a good architecture. It’s just what we have to work with now.
Hopefully Xorg can die at some point, a decade or so from now. I’m just glad I don’t work with desktops anymore, the swap to Wayland will be painful for a lot of organisations.
Rustdesk is an alright remote desktop option, although it definitely far from perfect. Wayland offers the support remote desktop needs, this is just up to someone wanting a solution enough to make it.
I agree that the “every frame being perfect” thing was dumb, but tearing support exists so its not really a complaint anymore.
Nvidia does work fine on every major Wayland implementation.
Screensharing works fine.
I understand the disappointment in how long Wayland is taking to be a perfect replacement to X11, but a proper replacement should absolutely not be rushed. X11 released 40 years ago, 15 years to make a replacement with better security and more features is fine.
Wayland has put a huge emphasis on improved security, which is also one of the biggest reasons some features have taken so long. This is a good thing, rushing insecure implementations of features is a horrible idea for modern software that will hopefully last a long time.
In its current state, Wayland is already good for the large majority of use cases.
What I’ve seen of rustdesk so far is that it’s absolutely not even close to the options available for X. It replaces TeamViewer, not thin clients.
You would need the following to get viability in my eyes:
- Multiple users per server (~50 users)
- Enterprise SSO authentication, working kerberos on desktop
- Good and easily deployable native clients for Windows, Linux and Mac, plus html5 client
- Performant headless software rendered desktops
- GPU acceleration possible but not required
- Clustering, HA control plane, load balancing
- Configuration management available
This isn’t even an edge case. Current and upcoming regulations on information security drags the entire industry this way. Medical, research, defence, banking, basically every regulated landscape gets easier to work in when going down this route. Close to zero worries about endpoint security. Microsoft is working hard on this. It’s easy to do with X. And the best thing on Wayland is RustDesk? As stated earlier, these issues were brought up and discarded as FUD in 2008, and here we are.
Wayland isn’t a better replacement, after 15 years it’s still not a replacement. The Wayland implementations certainly haven’t been rushed, but the architecture was. At this point, fucking Arcan will be viable before Wayland.
Fair enough, I haven’t worked in an industry with requirements like that. Can you share an example of software you would use for a setup like that? I’m interested in learning more about it. I wonder how many companies are currently using a solution like that with Linux.
Wayland itself isn’t doing anything to prevent those solutions from working, but nobody has chosen to create a solution like that supporting Wayland. If the companies working on and funding Wayland need a solution like that, then they can make or fund it.
Right now, Wayland is good enough to be used on employee workstations for most peoples day to day work, because most people dont work at a company using a solution like you described.
After 15 years, Wayland is lacking some things X11 has, but has also far surpassed it in many ways. Linux is now usable on HiDPI and has proper color management. Companies like Redhat aren’t picking features at random, they’re prioritizing what their biggest customers need, because thats what makes money. Again, just to reiterate, Wayland supports the usecases you’ve described, but companies haven’t made software for this usecases that works with Wayland.
Wayland may not be a better replacement for you, but is sure is for a ton of users and organizations.
Your point is that it is still rough and then you bring up a bunch of stuff that is no longer an issue.
NVIDIA in particular is a solved problem with both explicit sync and open source kernel modules as the default from NVIDIA themselves.
Rustdesk and Waypipe are probably going to eat into your billion dollars (and network transparency laments).
As stated in the article, opt-out vsync is already a thing (though not widely implemented yet).
I have not used GNOME in a while but KDE on Wayland is great. And the roadmap certainly looks a lot nicer than xorg’s.
I was on a video call in Wayland an hour ago. I shared my screen. I did not think about it much at the time but, since you brought it up….
If that is your full list, I think you just made the case that Wayland is in good shape.
RHEL 9 defaulted to Wayland in 2022 and RHEL 10 will not even include Xorg as an option. Clearly the business world is transitioning to Wayland just fine.
GNOME and KDE both default to Wayland. So, most current Linux desktops do as well.
X11 will be with us a long time but most Linux users will not think about it much after this year. They will all be using Wayland.
Last I tried Rustdesk (two days ago) it was a buggy, glitchy mess and the shared screen was tearing immensely. Is that recent or did it use to be better?
Yeah, the few thousand users I managed desktops for will remain on X for the next few years last I heard from my old colleagues.
Because of my points above
But good that your laptop works now and that I can help my grandma over teamviewer again.
The gnome implementation that I’m forced to use is god damn awful. This whole eventbus implementation is so bad, it misses events and doesn’t always register key-up, when I’m switching workspaces. I do it a lot, and the key gets stuck spamming the same letter, because it didn’t register key up!! Hell sometimes it doesn’t register keydown, super annoying when writing passwords.
Random crashes of gnome happens more often than I would like to admit, and all that you’ve been working on is gone aswell. What a garbage design, why the fuck should the wm own the processes, I swear the wayland people live on a another planet.
And the whole permissions thing to ensure privacy, mf this is linux, stop making me do workarounds for shit that you won’t allow, because you haven’t implemented the correct support for it.
I’m running Ubuntu 24.04, thing fucking sucks, I’m forced by work. Dude x11, just worked, like Wayland solved anything at all.
I’ve been using Wayland for years and I have no idea of what you are talking about (regarding the key-up, key-down issue, but I also haven’t noticed any crash attributable to Wayland, specifically). Did the same computer you are using work with X11, and stopped working properly after an update? Could it be a hardware or driver issue? Also, has Canonical removed the X session from Ubuntu 24.04, or using Wayland is a company policy?
Using the latest Ubuntu lts is company policy if you want to use Linux. All support for x11 is removed from gnome, you can’t even change x11 anymore. I switch workspaces all the time, like web browser in one, dev env and terminal, so constantly switching, 50% of the time it will miss the key up event from your keyboard and it’s registering that you are holding the key down.
Gnome randomly crashes, for instance sometimes clicking on a link that someone sent you, just randomly crashes gnomes, happened yesterday. So all the processes you started via gnome is gone, you need to reopen all your tools again, happens at least 6 times a week.
Sometimes gdm doesn’t work, so you can’t login, you have to open another tty and reset gdm in the other session. It’s so bad, never had these issues before in x11, sure there were bugs, but not annoying bugs.
Driver issues or not, it’s annoying as fuck. Gnome developers (redhat or whoever sells support for gnome) implementing the display server, gg.
hard disagree about the permissions. If I want to run closed source programs like games, discord, zoom or whatever, I like knowing they can’t log all my keys, take screenshots or even run their own version of windows recall without my explicit permission
hard disagree. if your software is missing baaic functions, you shut up about roles and permissions or even force that crap on others.
yeah. the thing with the stuck keys and crashes is not normal. I’ve never experienced it (though I wanted to restart the window manager once), but also I’m using KDE
and you know what? if you still need x11 for some things, log in on a 2nd TTY to another user with an x11 session. you can then switch the active TTY to use the other. Though I admit, I have no idea how the 2 users’ sound system work together
X11 absolutely didn’t just work, hence Wayland’s entire existence and rapid adoption once it was mature enough to function. Xorg’s decades old cobbles together code ase of awkward fixes for obscure issues and random contributions that had to be repeatedly fixed in every other patch is infamous as an example of how not to do FOSS software over time, and serves as a fatal warning to all open source projects.
Wayland has issues, and those issues are being fixed. Slow updating distros, as always, suffer the most with new software and paradigms. But whining about it hardly helps. This is foss land, contribute or report, never complain.
